Problems with last night's CSL

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Wendingo
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Problems with last night's CSL

Postby Wendingo » July 4th, 2015, 12:23 pm

Hi folks.

I have crafted the below email to the committee this morning in reply to the feelings many folks have been sharing with me lately on the CSL issues that have come to light.

For the record, I GM the Alphas and i 100% don't care what the result is. I want the FBA to be happy and drama free and i think the only way to do that is to have an open conversation.

We agreed that I don't want this to be a committee only discussion, so we're opening it up here as well.

Problem:

1) CSLs are intended to be fair, 50/50 events with no real advantage for either team. They are there for entertainment purposes. The FBA finals were determined to be CSL run for the entire series, and the result has been poor at best- With all 4 games being huge blow outs in favor of SAS, no one is happy.
2) Game 4 was played with an incorrect line up, prompting people to ask for a retcon.
3) Games 1-2 were played with a incorrect playbook, prompting people to ask for a retcon.

Views and thoughts:

Buck:
Buck is upset because he wants the games to be close. NBA 2k can be difficult to balance and hard to predict and I 100% believe he wants things fair.

I HONESTLY believe Buck’s heart is in the right place and i feel bad for him that bad rolls has turned this out to be worse then intended.

The Alphas:
Several of those on Albany’s squad have come to me to complain that this series is lopsided. ALB is 1-7 on the season in CSLs, and while I 100% do not feel that Buck is intentionally hurting ALB, i’d be remissed if I ignored it even with my conflict of interest being ALB's GM.

The Alphas were given the Knicks playbook, one of the worst in the game while the Spectrums were given the Warriors, one of the best in the game. This provided an advantage to SAS until it was fixed in game 3.This was unintentional and an unknown but someone more informed than me can add more on this.

There are also concerns with the players used and the patch but i don't know enough here to comment on it.

Mitch:
Mitch is upset because everyone seems to hate on SAS being super good and having no story. He’s also getting defensive at the ideas of retcons. He wants SAS to be successful because that's a good indication of himself as a GM, but he hates the idea of it being a blowout and for people to be talking behind his back, especially in a luck based contest.

Ada:
Ada is upset because he put a ton of time (>100 hours!) trying to make the games fair, then didn’t see all of his information used in the broadcast. I can understand his frustration here, but I can ALSO understand Buck’s frustration back. CSLs are his work and I can see how I’d be frustrated if someone came in and tried to dictate how my work was done. Ada’s heart was in the right place but mistakes happened. I adore both of these contributors for ALL the work they've done in trying to make the CSLs fair and the best possible experience for everyone here. There works should be commended to the highest degree.

Potential solutions

Now as ALB’s GM, I can’t vote here, but, i can propose solutions. And i've tried to be neutral in presenting these so please think for yourself.

1) Reroll game 4 (CSL or Stevie’s engine) using Ada’s data, Keep last night’s game as game 5 if ALB wins. SAS wins the series either way.
2) Reroll game 4, if ALB wins, continue to game 5.
3) Reroll the entire (or PART of the) series, since people are upset about the error for games 1-2. Using a combination of Stevie’s engine and Buck’s engine
4) Retcon the series, go to a Disney-like winner take all 1 CSL game 7 on CSL (or start on game 6?)
5) Do nothing, season over. SAS wins

Point 1) My problem with 1 is it makes the makeup CSL game a worthless game. There is no drama since we already know the outcome, SAS will win game 5. But it is a solution that would be ‘fair’. Doesn’t solve all the listed problems.

Point 2) My problem with 2 is there is no tension, we’re just delaying the inevitable. Down 3 games to none, its a boring series for many knowing even if we have close games, SAS has a 93~% chance of winning 1 of the next 4. It also doesn’t change the issues with the first two games. However it is the most 'fair' resolution but ignores earlier issues.

Point 3) I have less of a problem with 3. But it drags the series/FBA season out. Right now forcing 7 additional games might feel forced and upsetting if the results are wildly different. However it would solve a lot of issues with fairness.

Point 3a) We can reroll the series using Stevie’s engine until we get to an elimination game?

Point 4) The cons here is that the committee is forcing story to happen, but the pros are that we get a meaningful game and only 1 of them. Win, lose or blow out this will be a meaningful finals game that everyone can agree on. However, it does ‘cheapen’ both Buck's and Ada’s work and limits us to a single game sample size.

Point 4a) Make the series a best of 3 or 2. Giving Albany wins as ‘payback’ for the bad games 1-2 has been proposed as well. But again that's forcing games to have a better experience which has pros and cons.

Point 5) “If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice”
it'll leave a lot of people annoyed and ends the series on a bad note but it does solve the problem. Ending the season soon would be beneficial so everyone can decompress and look ahead.


I've made a straw poll link here but i'm hoping conversation is RESPECTFUL below.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1O2fu8A ... 0/viewform
Last edited by Wendingo on July 6th, 2015, 7:02 am, edited 4 times in total.
Player for Dylan Redfield, Jake Turner, GM of the Albany Alphas.

Redmane
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Re: Problems with last night's CSL

Postby Redmane » July 4th, 2015, 12:35 pm

First off, lemme preface everything with ...I am just a rookie here...and I am not as up on rules, ins and outs of the FBA as some of you seasoned vets and others.

All I know is I have been feeling frustrating watching the Alphas lose 3 games in a row with at least a 15 point deficit and to see the 4th game with a 20 point deficit in our losing. These are both the best teams in the FBA atm? The finals certainly don't show it. The twitterverse has pretty much gone silent, no one talking about any games...why? Just not exciting...they too maybe see the inconsistencies some of us Alphas are? It just seems no one wants to talk about it. That is what is frustrating. If the system of CSLs needs to be fixed, looked at...how did 3 games go by with 15 point defeats...in a championship series.

Now...I am no sports guy, this is the most I been involved in sports...and it involves cartoon animals and fake games. But know what...I LOVE IT. I love the interactions, the comradery, the ups and downs. It's not that we win games, it's that we enjoy them. So...am I frustrated PURELY because we lost all 4 games...nope, I am totally fine with losing, specially if they were close, hard fought battles. But to get swept away, this handily. Something is wrong. I do not know what, or what should be done about it...I just feel helpless and that is what really sucks.

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Re: Problems with last night's CSL

Postby Akkarri » July 4th, 2015, 12:49 pm

Well, just a few thoughts. I know Ada did a lot of work on the CSL "NBA2K" comparisons, and wanted to share some comments on those.

I did several runs testing like Buck had ran in Game 3. In that setup, ALB still would consistently lose by 12-15 points.

But I think the playbooks have a huge effect on the 2K results. Why I suggest that is that I ran several other games with SAS as the Warriors, and ran several games with ALB with the Rocket's and Bull's playbooks. Under the Rockets the games were much closer, but ALB won constantly by 1-2 possessions. Under the Bull's, that margin widend to 10-15 points in ALB's favor.

So I am seeing a rather large effect based purely on the Playbook.

Now, I only have a little more time to talk, before getting busy once again. But I wanted to comment on point 5.

The biggest risk I find with saying "do nothing" is that had a hugely Apathetic tone.

Just as excitement is contagious, APATHY is even more so. And choosing to necessarily say 'meh get it over with and get ready for next year" speaks much apathy that kind of makes some wonder "Why put effort into it or care about it... Especially when the committee / commissioner appears so apathetic to the results?"

And, tell you what, IF apathy grows too strong.... That could damage the FBA or worse.

Now I love the FBA and all it does to create story, its own universe, and its own community... So much so, I don't want to see things go downhill or be damaged. So I think that is why I am concerned and vocal about this. I just don't want the "Fast" or "easy" solution to cloud what would be a good or right choice as it could be a disservice to not only this fictional universe we are all creating and adding to, but also to each other.

I know it is a hard choice, hard to be fair after everything has been done already. No one wants to re-duplicate effort... But to me, when something is broken, you need to fix and make it right. Personally I don't care who win's or loses, but four blowouts to a sweep does not look right for two division champions, nor is great for story or contributors. And besides, incredibly boring in a CSL or for Buck to use his time setting up and announcing.

So personally I'd lean towards solution 4a (best 2 of 3), 4 (not so hot as that is almost as good as just flipping a coin and declaring a winner) or 3 (more work, a lot of ret-con, but gives a better series to work with for writing). Still I wouldn't mind everyone giving their opinions, these are my humble Four Fitty (damn inflation) but I just wanted to voice my opinion here.

Thank you,
Akkarri

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Paul Shep
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Re: Problems with last night's CSL

Postby Paul Shep » July 4th, 2015, 1:14 pm

As a fan, I still feel like this should have been a closer series all together. I'm sure Buck feels like he hasn't done his job right in regards to keeping the CSL games even, but that's ok. Mistakes happen, and we can always fix them. It is clear in my mind that the Spectrums are the heavy favourites, but in regards to their opponent as a whole, I feel that the Alphas CAN challenge for the title.

So, in that aspect, I would like to share a suggestion I did with the committee: A combination of 2) and 3), called 6) Reroll Game 4 using Stevie's engine, find a result for Albany to take Game 4 (stay in the closet, broom), and turn the series into a best of 3, if it can come to that. Regardless, SAS will still have a 3-1 series lead. One SAS win in either one of the three remaining games and the series is over. Game 5 and 6 shall be determined via Stevie engine, giving Buck and Ada time and room to breathe for a 7th game, and if a Game 7 does happen, Buck can do a CSL on the game, but the playbooks have to be that of caliber playoff teams. In Albany's case, I can see them being the Cavaliers.

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CensorBunneh
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Re: Problems with last night's CSL

Postby CensorBunneh » July 4th, 2015, 3:34 pm

Akkarri, sample sizes matter in this regard, 1-2 games per playbook aren't enough to tell. There's also the team's Points of Emphasis, which you might have glossed over here.

Now to address everyone on what I know - every team has a base stat (those circle things on the Quick game option), player stats are then also added to these base stats. Playbooks/playstyles, not matter how good, cannot compensate for the lack of stats a majority of the time (<10%, sample size of over 35 full games I spent time on) which, if the gap is significant, allows the stronger team to win practically all the time, which in the case of the first 2 CSL games, the Clippers (SAS) VS the Knicks (ALB).

Back in that roster that Buck used, the Clippers were #3 (Now#5), and the Knicks #26 (now #29), if memory serves right, and if my tests are correct, it's teams which are within a gap of 8 ranks of one another, if performing consistently (hence changing the sliders for offensive and defensive consistencies on the game's CPU Sliders Option) will make for much closer games. Basically put, if they were still the Clippers and Knicks, ALB has 0 chances of winning unless SAS was badly nerfed and ALB used a better playbook and proper Points of Emphasis.

Below is my screenshot on the Clippers and Knicks' ranks on the most recently updated 2K Sports Roster:
Image

In essence, the first 2 games weren't played on the wrong playbook, they're played on the completely wrong teams with incorrect roster timestamps, and the jersey colours were off by quite a long shot as well.
Game 3 was played with the right team with a wrong timestamp, Game 4 was played with the same mistakes Game 3 had with the wrong lineup added on top of it.

On the time I created my rosters, it was about mid-early NBA playoffs time, and the Cavaliers are #7 back then with the Warriors being #1, but when Buck started off his CSL twitch broadcast, something that alarmed me was that the Cavaliers were #12 (Greater gap than 8!!!), and Warriors were #1 overall, whereas in the most recent Official 2K Roster, the Warriors are #1 and the Cavaliers #3, which makes me suspect that:
- The game used on the PS4 was pre-patch, which means
- The game roster used was what came with the installation of the game, not coming from the most recent 2K Roster OR
- The game was patched, but the roster not updated (separate entity/server/department)

Image (mine)
VS
Image (2K)
VS
12th VS 1st (CSL)
12th VS 1st (CSL)
12th VS 1st (CSL)
12th VS 1st (CSL)
12th VS 1st (CSL)
12th VS 1st (CSL)
12th VS 1st (CSL)
12th VS 1st (CSL)
12th VS 1st (CSL)
12th VS 1st (CSL)


The 2K Sports Official Roster is consistent among all 3 platforms, and is constantly tweaked by 2K to reflect how the teams presently stand, and things have changed since I built my own roster somewhat, but the teams are still within 8, and I'll show you guys the results in a bit.

To be honest, the fact that the engines work on a 'base stat with player stats on top' flew right over my head. Should have remembered this 2KTV Episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X5RrzwgJR8
They simmed the entire post-season with the NBA 2K Engine.

Now speaking of the teams canonically, the Spectrums play like the Spurs, so I changed it's playbook to the Spurs playbook with their Points of Emphasis as well (which is bad for Vos/Westbrook, because of his tendencies/playstyle, in essence nerfing him), but the team as a whole, well, plays as a whole.

Image

Image

Image

For the case of the Alphas, their stars are Knutten (Should've been older Kobe IMO, not the younger one, makes more canonical sense) and Umaechi, and the Cavaliers playbook are essentially built around Lebron/Umaechi in this case, and canonically, they'd play through their stars. Coaches however (I think Rourkie, in this case) should come in and give feedback on what kinda play he's seeking from his players.

Image

Image

Image

Then there's also the matter of player badges

If you've played 2K15 for a while and unlocked some for your MyCareer character, you should've come across 2 Badges
- Spark Plug - Provides a spark off the bench (some specific stat ups for all players on court when player comes off the bench) [Should apply to some characters, I did not put this on everyone however]
- Fierce Competitor - Player stats up when team falls far behind during a match [Since this is the finals, I have this equipped on EVERYONE, all 30, though some come with it by default]

Image

Image

Now when it comes to the games, I have recorded hours upon hour upon hours of gameplay (Prior to cleaning up, I have recorded more than the entire season's worth of CSLs at this time of us speaking) using the settings I have above

Example or SAS winning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCBKsSLecRg
Example of ALB winning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DPqhayN2_I

ALB Blowout: Image

ALB Blowout: Image

ALB Victory: Image

ALB Victory: Image

ALB Victory: Image

SAS Victory: Image

SAS Blowout: Image

These 6 screenshots/shots took about 7 hours to get, and the 2 game recordings above will let you understand why. All were done with the same settings shown in the screenshots above for both teams for the last... I dunno, week at least, 6+ hours a day, grabbing at least data for 6-7 games per day.

Note that however, blowouts with either teams are VERY well possible, even with my setup and sliders put into place, shown in the screenshot below, linked to Dropbox:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/k7zbhdhl8vaq5 ... e.jpg?dl=0

To add, if you want both teams to perform to their utmost 'perfection', slide the Offensive and Defensive Consistency sliders to 100

Anyways, my own roster to be used for the CSL Broadcasts have been uploaded to the official 2K Servers, but for PC only sadly (No cross-platform compatibility, confirmed by the nice folks at Operation Sports Forums).
Image

Feel free to download, set up and test, your samples will add to my present near 50/50 distribution for both teams.

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Re: Problems with last night's CSL

Postby Harlow » July 4th, 2015, 4:44 pm

First of all, ain't pissed at anyone and gettin pissed for this is dumb.

Secondly, Looking at this on the very basic points: A game where players were wanted somewhere, but the changes weren't picked. That would be a reroll call anyway.

Calling a retcon on all finals wouldn't be fair, since all afaik was set on what the ones behind wanted. The most fair is a game 4 reroll and see how it goes. Is likely that it ends up in a SAS victory, but it would all be in place with what people wished for. Stories will be had, and everyone will have it the way meant.

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Re: Problems with last night's CSL

Postby KevinMalka » July 4th, 2015, 5:45 pm

Story trumps everything, that's the base we should live by in this story and art-based world.

However, story does need a base. Unless we have a base, with a community this size, all we will get are arguments on whose story is correct, and when that happens, nobody wins. That's why we have the engine. But the engine can be overruled. We have it happen with game stat boosts, with planned victories or defeats, injuries, etc. And when the engine is so far off base, we can overrule it and redo.

And, based on everything I have heard, this is exactly what happened here. At the very least, for Game 4.

I think Game 4 should be redone, if only due to the extent that it was out of line, especially with everything that was done to get it in line. As for the rest of the games, I have no real opinion on them. But Game 4, I think, should be redone.

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Re: Problems with last night's CSL

Postby JTigerclaw » July 4th, 2015, 6:41 pm

(Fair warning, I'm typing this fast, as I have to get back to work. If anything said here comes out wrong or seems too blunt, please forgive me and I apologize in advance. I mean no disrespect towards anyone).

Before I discuss a possible solution (or my idea for a solution) please let me set some groundwork for my opinion.

With all due respect to those who have put in a lot of their time for these CSLs (your efforts are super appreciated, and it makes the FBA more fun as a whole), it seems like to me, the CSLs have been the problem. I know, "duh JT, that's obvious", right? Let me expand on this.

Player Comparisons:

I can't seem to easily find the Player Comparisons used for the Alphas and Spectrums, but a couple that I have already seen stand out to me.

Victor Vos = Russell Westbrook

Vos 2014-2015:
16.1 PPG, 1.2 RPG, 6.1 APG, 1.9 SPG, 52% 3PT

Westbrook 2014-2015:
28.1 PPG, 7.3 RPG, 8.6 APG, 2.1 SPG, 30% 3PT

Now to me, it seems like by making Victor Vos be Russell Westbrook, it is severely overpowering that player, which may explain why he has been the PotG for every game this series with scoring outputs of 27, 36, and 27 (I don't know what he scored in Game 4). This is part of what set the tone of SAS being so much better than Albany.

I had previously thought that the Player Comparisons were just for stylistic purposes (as in, simply matching playing styles, not talent level) but I've come to find out that the players (such as Westbrook) are simply being inserted into the lineup without adjusting the player's stats and ratings to be more like their FBA counterparts (please correct me if I am misinformed). This means SAS has received an unfair advantage by having Russell Westbrook on their team. It's even caused Victor Vos to see a huge increase in MVP votes (which is only meant to take into account the regular season, not the playoffs), further illustrating the effect of the discrepancy in engine results.

Meanwhile, Umaechi has been modeled after LeBron James, which makes a lot of sense. The husky is supposed to be one of the best FBA players, yet he has not performed anything like it these playoffs, scoring 11, 24, 14 (again, don't know Game 4 stats). Meanwhile, Rene Lacoste has scored 30, 22, 28, consistently outscoring every player on his team with the exception of Umaechi in Game 2 (by 2 points). I am not going to spend a couple hours comparing how many times Lacoste has outscored Umaechi in the regular season, but I would bet that it could be counted on 1 hand. And the result is Umaechi being labeled a "choker", which seems unfair given that the engine used is so different than the normal one.

Am I saying that Rodger Umaechi should always score the most points per game and Vos should never get PotG? Of course I'm not. But it does show vast inconsistencies between the CSL engine (NBA2K) and the normal engine used for the regular season.


Team Playbooks:

As has been pointed out by the much-more-experienced-and-informed-2K-player, Ada (that comprehensive breakdown was just... Wow! XD), the team playbooks make a huge difference in game results as well. As is shown when the Warriors playbook is up against the Knicks playbook, the results are predictably lopsided, even if the players for both teams are switched around.

My idea of a more appropriate comparison for Albany (as has been stated by Paul and Ada) is Cleveland. Both teams run plays through their stars, and unlike New York, the Cavs are actually good, with a better playbook. It seems like it would have been more fair from the start to use CLE vs. GSW as the teams, which would mirror this year's NBA Finals and put Umaechi (LeBron) in a much more familiar team role than what he is apparently struggling with up to now.


Differences in Game Engines:

It was stated in a committee email that, for various reasons (including the huge time drains on Buck, Ada, and others), that the FBA Finals should not be solely decided by CSL simulations. I tend to agree. As cool as CSLs are (and they are really cool, when not a blowout), it's like using Engine A for an entire season and most of the postseason, then suddenly switching to Engine B for the last 4-7 games... the MOST IMPORTANT GAMES of the season, I might add. And unfortunately, Engine A and Engine B are very different, and the results produced have been inconsistent with what has come to be expected (a close match between 2 strong teams).

This is what the FBA Charter says: (seen here -- https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fX2 ... DC-c/edit#
Podcasts and Special Events:

1) Podcasts and Special Events (i.e. Courtside Live) may be approved by the commissioner as a single-event replacement to the standard engine for game results.
a) The results of any replacement engine may be accepted as canon by the discretion of the commissioner.
b) The commissioner may replace the results of any replacement engine with his or her own results after the special event.



This rule would appear to state that the FBA Commissioner (Stevie) has the right to accept any results produced by another engine as canon... or if not, he can replace the results of the replacement engine with his own results, which could be results gained from a standard simulation using the current FBA engine.


In my own opinion, and as much as it would suck for those who have already sank time into these CSL broadcasts, I feel like the results have been too wildly inconsistent from the standard engine to consider canon. For the reasons stated above (and also in Ada's post) it appears to me that Albany was at a clear disadvantage and Santa Ana at a clear advantage from the start.

The whole point of CSLs is to keep things fair and exciting. That's why the teams are usually made even, even when those teams are not that even in the FBA world. And here, unfortunately, the CSL has failed to keep things fair and exciting, which means the CSL formula needs to be looked at, and is why we're having this conversation.

So here's the suggestion I've come up with.

Let Stevie run the normal engine for Games 1 and 2. Those are the games where the playbooks were screwed up in NBA2K. That would allow him to replace those game results with results that are a bit closer to realistic. (This is of course Stevie's call). If SAS wins both of those games again with the regular engine, so be it. It's too much work for Buck to run all those games back on CSL, and the results might not be different anyways.

We must reroll Game 4. The lineup that was set by the SAS HC was not the lineup that was used in the game, which is an error that affected the outcome of the game. Plus, people have been the most vocal about this game in particular, due to this error and the resulting blowout. I suggest we either reroll those results using Stevie's standard regular season engine, or redo the CSL using Ada's set up (which should be more fair than current CSLs, even if the results end up being another blowout, as Ada has shown is still possible with his setup).

If, by doing this, Albany gets a win or two and it allows for a Game 5, we can use some time to tweak everything to be as fair as possible before doing another CSL (I'd recommend Ada's set up, as it seems that offers a more balanced result as a whole, and switching up the playbooks accordingly). Any further games, we can use CSL if the results appear to be more favorable, which may allow for at least a more thrilling elimination match. If CSL is still being screwy, we can simulate using the regular engine, which while that's less exciting, would produce fairer results that everyone can be at least satisfied with.

With this suggestion, it allows for CSLs to decide around half the games, as opposed to all of them. That, in my opinion, would keep the results a bit more fair, as we wouldn't be depending on a completely different engine to decide the results of the Championship. It would also (in the future) reduce the Finals workload for Buck (or whoever) from having to find time to set up and host so many CSLs.

What do you guys think? Should Games 1-2 be re-rolled? Or should we just keep the re-rolling to Game 4 and then go from there? In the end, we all just want a result we can agree was fair, even if it's still a sweep.

Anyways, that's my 2 cents. Time to rush off for work! Being a cab driver is like the worst job for enjoying weekends and holidays. X3
Player of:

Mikaylah Marley, Wendy Brown, Vera La Tiérra, Rodger Umaechi, Sarah Lancaster, Ryan Malone, Kasa Yalenchka, Christopher Zwischenberger, Aisha Melbourne (adopted), Chrys Bourgeois (reporter)

Other characters: Not enough space to list em all :P

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Re: Problems with last night's CSL

Postby Akkarri » July 4th, 2015, 8:35 pm

@Ada I am just stating what I found over what I could put time into, with my regular job and the free time, I can only run about 2-4 games in an evening, and those were the results I was seeing.

As for points on story, yes story has been used to site in victory of single match ups in the past, stat boosts, or more. But is there anyone requesting stat boosts due to their story for a finals series? Or is there someone requesting a particular result for story reasons, for a finals game? Granted story is great, but at the same time, some things have to just happen in their own way. Besides, most of the time, I believe that asking for a particular result in a game for story purposes still requires agreement from outside of just the writer. It takes ALOT more agreement.

To me, I am not one to ask for a particular results or anything. I like to let the randomness, the results of the engine help mold the character's reactions. But it is within reason. A regular season game, becomes a slaughter, three players injured, yeah, that can be devastating. But with two that have ranked the best in their division, you expect more out of both teams than a one way blowout.

Personally, I am not one to say "reroll all the games" but in some ways... Not considering it is kind of unfair as well. Best example I can think of is with a car company and a recall.

Car company discovers a problem with their breaks / headlights / wiring / whatever. They could ignore or (though that usually results in things they do not want to think about). But they usually opt to fix the issue. Now, just re-rolling a game, when we have identified some issues with another two games would be like a car company saying they'll fix the issue in all cars coming off the line... And not addressing the known issue in any of the cars they know are out on the road. Wouldn't be a pretty thought, would it?

So hard to say what is really fair, but that is another four Fitty from me. In a way, addressing only 1/2 of the known issues only wastes time and generates some feeling of dismissal by others. If you know there are related issues, do you just ignore those?

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Re: Problems with last night's CSL

Postby qovapryi » July 5th, 2015, 2:49 am

I agree with most of the stuff that has been said above and would like to throw in my proverbial two cents.

About the retcon of the entire series: I acknowledge the reasons behind that thinking, but at the same time can't help but thinking it would create a dangerous precedent in regard to the league's "fairness". Say that ALB wins that in a blowout - how would that resolve the problem? Without the 100% guarantee of that being a more exciting series than the one we played, it's a huge jump in the dark (although WAY less dark than before, thanks to a certain bune :) ) and something that could warrant bigger drama than the one at hand.

Not to mention that if that comes to pass, every CSL result from 2013/14 on can be rediscussed "because the playbooks weren't calibrate accordingly". The 2014 Finals were a blowout as well - what happens if we retcon the SAS@ALB series and then someone comes forward and says "we should replay that series as well?" And keep in mind that the same exact thing might have happened there.

My proposal is to replay the Game 4 CSL, the one where incorrect line-ups were set up, and then go through with the remainder of the series - be it to four, five, six or seven games. I acknowledge the issue that lies within the first two CSLs, but I believe the best thing is to take it as a learning point for the future, should the system be brought back for the next season.

I also acknowledge the issue JT mentioned about the Players Comparisons not being for stylistic purposes. I honestly thought that saying "Scoonie Barrett plays like Serge Ibaka" didn't mean that CSL!Scoonie would become an exact doppelgänger of RL Serge, attributes and everything, but that he would only inherit Ibaka's playing style, with stats being changed according to Scoonie's IC skills. (Which also means I feel extra bad for suggesting "weak" players as Players Comparisons for some characters, and shushing the objection that "Alexey Shved is a horrible player" because I didn't think that Shved's (lack of) talent would be inherited by its FBA counterpart). I can definitely see this being a major problem down the road.

Q.

KevinMalka
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Re: Problems with last night's CSL

Postby KevinMalka » July 5th, 2015, 3:27 pm

Q has a good point there. I was under the impression as well, since that was how it was originally stated, that the player comparisons were only for playstyle, not attributes. I think many people were under that impression as well.

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Wendingo
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Re: Problems with last night's CSL

Postby Wendingo » July 5th, 2015, 4:47 pm

Hi Kings

As far as I understand it, its player attributes. Not player styles. That's a big difference but effectively Buck is copying there stats/attributes
Player for Dylan Redfield, Jake Turner, GM of the Albany Alphas.

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Re: Problems with last night's CSL

Postby FadedForest » July 5th, 2015, 4:48 pm

I believe the rerolling of games 1 and 2 (maybe 3 as well) using Steve's system would be best, with a retcon of Game 4 with a new CSL.

A full reroll of CSL games could take another week or two depending on the availability of those running it and how many games it ends up taking. (This will just put more stress on the guys who are already tired of the season.)

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Fraddas
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Re: Problems with last night's CSL

Postby Fraddas » July 5th, 2015, 5:43 pm

Pardon my French, but this is all insane. I get there are some who want to throw the towel in and want a season over and there are those who want a game 7 and those who want a complete redo. The fact we are even voting on this is insane. this used to be popular vote and commissioner goes with it now it's possibly going Popular vote> Committee discussion then commissioner decision? I'm sorry since when did the FBA become the Galactic Senate in Star Wars here?

If So let me cash in my Queen Amedala of the Naboo chip of no confidence in any of the options and offer the one that make 100% Sense for the FBA and not the Galactic Senete.

There was an incorrect roster with incorrect stats. If ANY CSL had a incorrect roster with incorrect stats, ect. There would have been a second take within the span of 24 hours.. I don't get why everyone's all up in arms about a simple matter of a redo....Ok I do but at the same time this is really a simple case of human error and honestly should not have to go into an election to see if it's a sweep or we get a game 5. that's all I really want is just a Simple CSL redo with Ada's stat's. he worked hard on closing the double digit gap, WE OWE THE BUNE!

*MicDrop PipeBomb*

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Wendingo
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Re: Problems with last night's CSL

Postby Wendingo » July 6th, 2015, 4:50 am

Pardon my French, but this is all insane. I get there are some who want to throw the towel in and want a season over and there are those who want a game 7 and those who want a complete redo. The fact we are even voting on this is insane. this used to be popular vote and commissioner goes with it now it's possibly going Popular vote> Committee discussion then commissioner decision? I'm sorry since when did the FBA become the Galactic Senate in Star Wars here?


For all the shadow council whispers we get, we figured we'd open it up to a public discussion. I don't get that you want to decry that now. Totally lost.

The 15+ post long / 20 votes shows people like this.
Player for Dylan Redfield, Jake Turner, GM of the Albany Alphas.


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